Does God Exist?

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Does God Exist?
Topic Started: Dec 6 2008, 10:37 PM (1,080 Views)
SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 6 2008, 10:37 PM Post #1
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	This will answer the question once and for all.
	I am so damn serious.


sean	Dec 6 2008, 10:40 PM Post #2
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	huh, we have the same favorite color
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 10:55 PM Post #3
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	That guy seems serious.
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


AlphaStrikeSteve	Dec 6 2008, 10:58 PM Post #4
Posts: -3,817 Group: Administrator Member #2 Joined: July 19, 2004	He is quite adequately moustachio'd I'll hear what you have to say, but make it quick
	_██_ (ಠ_ృ)


SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 7 2008, 12:30 PM Post #5
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	The creation of omniscient beings was mankind's first bedtime story. Since the time of the Neanderthals the precursors of humanity and then humans themselves have turned to religion to explain things they both didn't understand and feared. Now, just like the child who no longer needs a bedtime story to go to sleep, we as a race no longer need the fiction of religion. And yes, Nietzche's mustache was fabulous. Edited by SuperSeriousAtheist, Dec 7 2008, 12:32 PM.
	I am so damn serious.


Fed FFS	Dec 7 2008, 01:27 PM Post #6
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	You're right, mankind created religion (including Christianity) and can use it however it pleases. But calling a man-made institution false doesn't serve the premise of proving something that was undoubtedly not man made (God), false. Sure, men may not 'need' God as much as they used to (Or simply not feel need as much with the passing of time for various reasons), but not having a need for something doesn't mean it's dead or it doesn't exist. Their constant attacking of a strawman like religion to try to knock down God, is one of the many reasons Atheists aren't taken seriously. Non-religious people who don't hate God, or aren't trying vigorously to disprove him, tend to flock to Agnosticism (probably the fastest growing belief system in the U.S). I can't tell you God is real, you can't tell me God isn't real. (please don't waste time throwing the 'flying spaghetti monster' counter at me, by comparing it to something as abstract and non-simplistic as God)
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


Palmer	Dec 7 2008, 03:24 PM Post #7
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Actually, Fed, I have encountered more people who seem to acquiesce that there is a God, but simply don't care. Which is why they hold strong to their "I don't believe in organized religion" phrase. Basically they believe in God but are lazy. Which draws very near to agnosticism I guess. Oh yessss, the Neanderthals. Those very real people. So they could barely communicate, but could create religion? Ah, I see. Scientists sure can tell a lot about their culture from a painting of a cow on a cave wall. Like they can tell they used clubs to beat women over the head. Ahh, that is insight, that is intuition. So in the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Then the monkeys evolved into humans but we still have monkeys. Don't worry, the Large Hadron Collider will solve this dilemma, by either proving it right or destroying our lives as we know them. Even apart from spiritual experiences and Biblical evidence, I still feel like our bodies and our universe are much too complex to be left of to chance and guess work. Edit: Nice stache. Edited by Palmer, Dec 7 2008, 03:29 PM.



DarkSteele	Dec 7 2008, 06:54 PM Post #8
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	Actually Neanderthals were the first to bury their dead often with clothing, items like weapons and tools, and even other creatures. This is the first time any of the many predecessors of humanity (although neanderthals may or may not have been at this point, it is still uncertain) did anything like that. I assume this is what he was talking about. Also, lol at laziness. I think more people have been turned off by the corruption and scandal of the various church organizations (which never had a good track record to begin with). Besides if all you need is a personal relationship with God then why would you need to go to church in the first place?
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


sean	Dec 7 2008, 07:01 PM Post #9
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	nietzche's mustache has wings and possibly the capability of flight. your arguments are invalid.
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


sean	Dec 7 2008, 07:04 PM Post #10
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	DarkSteele Dec 7 2008, 06:54 PM Also, lol at laziness. I think more people have been turned off by the corruption and scandal of the various church organizations (which never had a good track record to begin with). Besides if all you need is a personal relationship with God then why would you need to go to church in the first place? jesus, his apostles, their disciples, the writings of the church fathers, and the seven ecumenical councils all tell you why you need to go to church
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


DarkSteele	Dec 7 2008, 07:26 PM Post #11
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	If you believe in a Christian God only, which isn't what I was talking about.
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 7 2008, 07:37 PM Post #12
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	DarkSteele Dec 7 2008, 06:54 PM Actually Neanderthals were the first to bury their dead often with clothing, items like weapons and tools, and even other creatures. This is the first time any of the many predecessors of humanity (although neanderthals may or may not have been at this point, it is still uncertain) did anything like that. Yes. Quote: Even apart from spiritual experiences and Biblical evidence, I still feel like our bodies and our universe are much too complex to be left of to chance and guess work. Good thing it is neither, rather a scientifically proven adaptation method designed to perpetuate good things and rid itself of the weak- combined with the presence of other creatures who are also adapting it creates better and better organisms. Related to this, charity organizations funded by the church etc. could be said to be actually stagnating our evolutionary process by coddling those not fit for life. Edited by SuperSeriousAtheist, Dec 7 2008, 07:38 PM.
	I am so damn serious.


Professor Sunshine	Dec 7 2008, 07:57 PM Post #13
Leader of the Gumdrop Gang Posts: 138 Group: Members Member #217 Joined: November 7, 2007	Minipalmer Dec 7 2008, 03:24 PM Oh yessss, the Neanderthals. Those very real people. So they could barely communicate, but could create religion? Ah, I see. Scientists sure can tell a lot about their culture from a painting of a cow on a cave wall. Like they can tell they used clubs to beat women over the head. Ahh, that is insight, that is intuition. So in the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. Then the monkeys evolved into humans but we still have monkeys. Don't worry, the Large Hadron Collider will solve this dilemma, by either proving it right or destroying our lives as we know them. Even apart from spiritual experiences and Biblical evidence, I still feel like our bodies and our universe are much too complex to be left of to chance and guess work. I'm just curious, Minipalmer, do you reject the theory of evolution in its entirety? I mean, to trivialize the complexity of natural evolution as being nothing more than monkeys turning into humans isn't fair. There's so much more to it than that. Underneath all of that scientific mumbo-jumbo (that I probably couldn't understand) lies an obvious pattern of a complex framework. Where that pattern originated, I can't say. But to deny its existence is just ignorant. As for Christianity requiring that you go to church, I'd have to disagree. More important than anything you'll ever hear, ever see, or ever learn inside of a church is spirituality. By that, I mean your own personal belief system relating your soul to your supreme being of choice. After all, you don't need a group of people telling you how to pray, when to pray, whom to pray to, or simply why to pray. I personally feel that all people should at least question their accepted belief system before latching on to anything. I mean, what good is it to accept what you've been told simply because that's the way it is? True faith comes in the face of doubt, not blind acceptance. Your individual belief system should come from within (even though I realize it's impossible not to be persuaded one way or another due to pressures from society), not from what some group of people decided a long time ago. You pick those aspects which you do or do not agree with (abortion, homosexuality, etc.) and go from there. As ridiculous as it sounds (and, yeah, it sounds pretty ridiculous... get ready for it), each person should be able to form their own religion, even if they're its only followers. In Christianity, the only thing that matters is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. At least, that's what I'm led to believe in my interpretations of the Bible: John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." 2 Timothy 2:10 "...that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory." And, yeah, I could totally be misinterpreting everything I hold to be true and end up in Hell. WHOOPS. I know that many would argue that Jesus told Peter that he was his rock and to lay the cornerstone of Christianity (well, Catholicism) thus giving an argument for the necessity of religion. I only focus on that one, because it seems to be a pretty popular one to bring up. And I know that there are probably countless more arguments for organized religion that I probably don't know, so please feel free to help me learn something new today. Despite my bias against organized religion, I'd still say that it is a necessary evil (ZING!). Organized religions are still good ways of getting a bunch of people together with similar belief systems and allowing them to have an outlet for the things they want to accomplish (mostly good things, I'd like to believe). I've tried to stay out of these topics for as long as possible, but I realllllly don't want to study and am trying to convince myself that this will help me on my Philosophy exam.



DarkSteele	Dec 7 2008, 08:34 PM Post #14
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	I'm pretty much in agreement with Sunshine here. An additional reason (apparently in addition to my rampant laziness) that I just can't support basically any of the major established religions of the West is that I just don't understand the whole "if you aren't christian you aren't getting into heaven" deal. Daniel informed me just now that you aren't going to hell specifically according to the bible, but still. I feel like all that should matter is how moral responsible and upright you are as a human being in your life- what if you are living in a remote area or are born into a part of the world where Christianity isn't common? That is pretty much insta-fucked right there and you don't even get a chance. Please, correct me if I'm wrong about this. edit: also, I think I'm going to set up a legit poll like SSA's - but with less biased answer choices (lol) Edited by DarkSteele, Dec 7 2008, 08:41 PM.
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


Fed FFS	Dec 7 2008, 08:49 PM Post #15
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	DarkSteele Dec 7 2008, 08:34 PM I'm pretty much in agreement with Sunshine here. HOW'S THE SMELL UP THERE JOHN? Nah but Daniel's also right about the hell thing. Not once does it ever say in the Bible that people who don't believe in Christ get sent to hell. The only things that ever get sent to the lake of fire in the bible are demons (chiefly in the book of revelation). When you die, so does your soul as a result of the fall of man... You don't get sent to hell to experience eternal pain and torment.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


Fed FFS	Dec 7 2008, 08:55 PM Post #16
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	The whole 'Sinners get sent to hell to experience eternal pain & torment' is an invention of the church. fear can be a powerful tool to keep people in the pews. pew pew pews.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


sean	Dec 7 2008, 09:28 PM Post #17
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	there are so many things wrong with this thread sometime when finals are over ill come back to this thread with bible in hand and we will DISCUSS!
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Palmer	Dec 7 2008, 11:45 PM Post #18
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	lol Yeah Sean is right. Fed's post made me rofl. Honestly, I can't offer you a mainstream Christian view because I am not a mainstream Christian. Here is what I can tell you about Mormonism on the subject. -------------"If you don't hear about Christianity because you're born under a rock, you go to hell." Mormon doctrine says that if you never hear the gospel, it is not held against you. You will have a chance to hear the word of God after you die, and you may accept it or reject it. But we try to fulfill Christ's admonition to preach the gospel unto all nations. This is the reason for our Missionaries riding bikes around your neighborhood. (Or in my brother's case, the slums of Brazil.) ----------------"Hell is literally hellfire and demons etc etc" ----------------"All you need is to have faith in Christ to go to heaven" Here is where we began to stray from mainstream Christianity. We believe there are 3 kingdoms of heaven. Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. (Celestial being the highest/best) We do not believe that there is literal fire and burning, but that this is a metaphor for the guilt you will feel from not being able to be with your family/friends/God in the higher kingdoms of Heaven. Or as scripture puts it, "wailing and gnashing of teeth." --------------"All you need to do is love God" James 2:20 "...faith without works is dead." My Church, and I, believe in a combination of faith and works. Only God knows the true intents of our hearts, and we will be judged accordingly. --------------- Now for Sunshine, do I reject evolution? You said yourself, under than scientific mumbo-jumbo is a complex framework. There sure is, and I believe God designed it. Genesis tells us that Adam was created in God's image, and unless Adam is a monkey then there were humans to start with. Now, if we evolved from single celled organisms, and eliminated useless organs and replaced them with useful ones - why are we surrounded by limited organisms? How is our animal world so diverse if everything started out from little cells? I don't completely deny evolution, but I do not place it above theism. It's been proposed that the 7 days in which God created the world is an analogy or a parable for millions of years. If this is the case, perhaps dinosaurs came and went and animals developed. -------------------- Sorry I got on my Mormon soap box, I'm just giving my opinion. If you think our beliefs are absurd, it all boils down to whether Joseph Smith was an inspired man or if the Book of Mormon is a real book. Edited by Palmer, Dec 7 2008, 11:47 PM.



Fed FFS	Dec 7 2008, 11:51 PM Post #19
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	pew pew pews? EDIT: you'd be surprised as to how traditional (Calvinistic) and Non-mainstream my views are. They aren't new at all to say the least. PREDESTINATION LOL Edited by Fed FFS, Dec 7 2008, 11:57 PM.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


Palmer	Dec 8 2008, 11:30 AM Post #20
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Do you really believe in predestination? I believe in foreordination, which is a lesser kind of predestination sorta.



DarkSteele	Dec 8 2008, 05:19 PM Post #21
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	Palmer it wasn't a book. It was gold plates. The animal world is so diverse because cells evolved in different directions and then, upon finding a niche, occupied that niche and eventually began to only evolve to further anchor themselves to said niche. edit: come on fed, if you believe in predestination then you are saying that God made everything happen right? essentially no or little free will? What if I decided to kill myself to prove a point? Would you say that just plays into the concept? Or better yet, are you saying that you take no responsibility for peeing on various cars throughout the years because God set all that shit up? I'm sorry but I can't believe in anything less than free will. Edited by DarkSteele, Dec 8 2008, 05:24 PM.
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


Palmer	Dec 8 2008, 06:30 PM Post #22
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Quote: Palmer it wasn't a book. It was gold plates. It sure was, and it was pieced together by a dude named Mormon, then called the Book of Mormon. Quote: The animal world is so diverse because cells evolved in different directions and then, upon finding a niche, occupied that niche and eventually began to only evolve to further anchor themselves to said niche. Alright, cool. Can you show me how or when this happened? Do you have pictures? What about a video? So you have no proof, just like religion. Quote: I'm sorry but I can't believe in anything less than free will. In case this was directed at me as well as Fed, foreordination means that we all have a potential, but we choose if we want to live up to that potential.



Fed FFS	Dec 8 2008, 06:31 PM Post #23
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	I believe in complete free will, but I also believe we don't have the power to save ourselves. We don't 'choose' to go to heaven any more than a drowning kid 'chooses' to be saved by a lifeguard. Even big biblical figures like Jacob & Jonah resist God's will and his love adamantly, but God still loves them and shows them grace. God is in total control, he gives & takes away life in every single possible regard. Christians who point fingers telling people they're going to hell unless they make the same decisions or say the prayer they have piss me off immensely
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


Palmer	Dec 8 2008, 06:34 PM Post #24
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Of course we have no power to save ourselves. This is why Christ died on the cross. This is why he gave a commandment to take the bread and the wine to remember him. In doing so, we make a covenant with him, and are able to be saved through his power.



Professor Sunshine	Dec 8 2008, 08:06 PM Post #25
Leader of the Gumdrop Gang Posts: 138 Group: Members Member #217 Joined: November 7, 2007	Quote: Alright, cool. Can you show me how or when this happened? Do you have pictures? What about a video? So you have no proof, just like religion. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3b/Darwin%27s_finches_cropped.jpeg or http://www.incadventures.com/images/grand-canyon-south-rim.jpg Okay, if your argument against evolution is that no visible proof exists, I�d have to disagree. How do you explain something as simple as natural weathering? Science has proven that such occurrences require thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of years to erode. The Grand Canyon is thought to have taken six million years to form thanks to the Colorado River running through it. Or how about carbon dating and half-life readings? We have elements and isotopes that undeniably require a given number of years to reach a certain point of decay. This leads me to wonder how you explain fossils (assuming you hold them to be valid)? We can use carbon dating to determine their ages, which puts some of them at millions of years in the past. Not only do we know that they are older than a few thousand years old, but we know that certain lifeforms have changed over time. It�s hard to prove genetic variances with what little DNA evidence we have, but we can show that the physical characteristics of animals has slowly changed over time to better suit their environment. The most commonly cited and widely accepted idea of this is apparent in Darwin�s studies: finches. We have evidence showing that animals have the ability to change and evolve, given their environment. To deny that the theory of evolution has no facts or evidence to back it up is a bit harsh. We do have plenty of facts that support the theory, moreso than religion, I would say. The only difference is that science requires rationality and logic coupled with cold, hard facts. Religion does not. Religion doesn�t need proof, or evidence, or even facts. All religion requires is a bit of faith. That�s what makes it so different from any scientific theory. You don�t need facts to have faith. And I agree with the thought that the whole �7 days� thing could have actually taken millions upon millions of years. It goes along with my belief that the Bible isn�t meant to be taken literally. Rather, it�s a collection of stories and parables meant to inspire spirituality within all of us and give us a solid understanding of what we should and shouldn�t do in life. As for predestination: lol



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