Is the Bible True?

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Is the Bible True?; Is God Real?
Topic Started: Dec 6 2008, 10:37 PM (916 Views)
Fed FFS	Dec 6 2008, 10:37 PM Post #1
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	I wont answer either of those questions, but here's a letter I wrote to a few of my highly conservative Christian friends back up in Chicago. I've gotten a few interesting responses from them, but I'd love to get some replies from a less subjective crowd. Much props if you can make it through this wall of Text. "There are two basic pillars that my life rests upon, and my mind has total and complete peace about. The First pillar is that I worship a sovereign, constant, ever loving, compassionate God, and the Second pillar is his son Jesus Christ, whom he sent to this earth to bear my sins upon the cross. Any and every other aspect of thought is to be tested, questioned, and reminisced. The Bible. It’s a man-made literary work, and It’s Divine inspiration shouldn’t lead anyone to think that this collection of scrolls is completely infallible, and completely uncontradictive. Matthew’s genealogy of Jesus: Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. Even though most of the prophetic books in the Old Testament aren’t referring to Jesus when they speak of the messiah, those that do (Chiefly Isaiah) pen Jesus as ‘the son of David’ and a Davidic heir to the throne of Jerusalem. So, to start his book, Matthew puts in a highly detailed genealogy tracing Jesus all the way to King David to prove that Jesus is the legit messiah. Therein lies one small problem however... he traces the line through Joseph. Having a step-dad related to King David doesn’t prove a thing and is a genuine waste of ink. Despite this miscalculation, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the Virgin Mary wasn’t related to King David, and I have no doubt that Jesus was indeed the messiah Isaiah prophesied about. My second quandary is with the book of Job… Did it happen? Let’s look at some of the books characteristics; It’s considered to possibly be one of the oldest books in the Bible. It has unknown origins and an unknown author It is written from an omnipresent point of view (Almost like a Shakespearean play, Ruth is also written in this form, with it’s chapters serving as different scenes) Job is portrayed as a righteous man, that doesn’t deserve the punishment he receives. As Christians, we all know very well that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. So maybe Job was just simply over punished and he did have a little sin in his life? No. The book of Job was put in the Bible to challenge traditional Hebraic thought that if ‘you’re a righteous person, good things happen to you, and if you’re a bad person, you get nothing but curses’. The author of the book of Job needed to make Job perfect and flawless or else the power of the message would carry less meaning. The central core of the message lies in Job’s three friends. Throughout the story they tell Job he must have done something wrong, something small, or something sinful to induce God’s wrath. But he didn’t, he was completely undeserving of the punishment he was begot. All this time, his three friends are telling him to repent simply because they’re trying to affirm their own traditional thought, and are the very first people that God comes down to talks to and reprimands when he relieves Job from his trials. Job is in essence an impossibly perfect human for the sake of the story. It’s simply a parable (or a play) which carries a powerful message. Malachi bears quite a pressing issue of contradiction Within the very first chapter ‘The Lord’ says, “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated” It is impossible for a Christian to take that phrase literally and fully believe that God would allow a phrase like that to be in his ‘Holy’ scripture if he really did dictate to the authors what to write in it. This is Human error, plain and simple. God is constant, God is love and he doesn’t hate even the most stubborn sheep in his flock. God hates sin, but he doesn't hate the sinner. The reason this phrase is included in the book of Malachi, is because of the book’s central theme ‘Just because things aren’t going well will you Israel, It doesn’t mean I’ve abandoned you’. Even though Jacob the deceiver is a sort of ‘black sheep’ among the patriarchs of the bible and isn’t necessarily any more deserving than Esau for God’s favor, God made a covenant with Jacob and granted him most of the inheritance. On a larger scale, God did the exact same thing with Israel. Even though Israel was just as wicked at times as the nations that surrounded her, God chose to make his covenant with Israel as an amazing act of love. A similar and amazing literary metaphor lies in the book of Hosea. The righteous prophet Hosea is told by God to marry a promiscuous woman (quite possibly a prostitute) named Gomer. Even though Hosea loves Gomer, she doesn’t cease from her old ways. Hosea’s life serves as a living representation of God’s relationship with his people. Even though God shows Israel and us compassionate, unconditional love, we often still choose to whore ourselves away to our own gods and sins. There are two points of view of the Bible that I scoff at. People who say the Bible isn’t real, are idiots… plain and simple. It’s a verifiable history book with laws, songs, and parables in it, with a God that can’t be proven or disproven by our scientific means. The second point of view is that of those who swear by the Bible. Who subconsciously in essence worship & idolize the ‘Holy’ Bible as ‘The word of God’. Woe to any man who claims that he can write ‘The word of God’ (more than likely none of the authors of the Bible ever claimed they did). The New Testament contains direct quotations of Jesus Christ from people who had first hand contact with him, but this in itself doesn’t make the New Testament the ‘Word of Jesus Christ’ any more than the book ‘Gone with the Wind’ is the ‘Word of Scarlett O’Hara’. The Bible was written by sinful, yet extraordinary men who even though some of which had an amazing indescribable exposure to God, they themselves were the ones who spilled their personality and their words into scripture. Something to further back this point is the case of authorship for the Pentateuch. Most people believe that Moses wrote the first five books of the bible. He’s a righteous man that had numerous direct encounters with God himself and has great credentials to be a legitimate author of these first key books of the bible. There however lies a few inconsistencies that challenge this line of thought. Numbers 12:3 states that, “Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth”. Writing something like that about yourself in the ‘Word of God’ seems to yield raw irony at best." whad'ya think?
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


sean	Dec 6 2008, 10:39 PM Post #2
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	i know you posted this on facebook recently, i began reading it but stopped after a short while whats the jist of it? im too religion'd out to read the whole thing right now
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Fed FFS	Dec 6 2008, 10:44 PM Post #3
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	the bible has mistakes. doesn't mean it isn't true.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


sean	Dec 6 2008, 10:46 PM Post #4
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	if its inconsistencies between old and new testament im not going to bother reading is it historical mistakes? geographical mistakes? anything else?
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


AlphaStrikeSteve	Dec 6 2008, 10:51 PM Post #5
Posts: -3,817 Group: Administrator Member #2 Joined: July 19, 2004	your post has many ideas and such and things which i don't know enough about to address which usually doesn't stop me but this time it will
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DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 10:53 PM Post #6
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	I think he is saying that some books were written by dudes with bias and some quotes from God are messed up, but the entire thing is still designed to teach you good christian lessons for the most part. Or something.
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


Fed FFS	Dec 6 2008, 10:57 PM Post #7
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	Just plain human, literary mistakes can be found throughout. bound to happen when you're trying to explain something as complex and grand as God. Too many people don't know what 'Inspired by God' really means & take it for more than it is. Edited by Fed FFS, Dec 6 2008, 10:59 PM.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


AlphaStrikeSteve	Dec 6 2008, 11:00 PM Post #8
Posts: -3,817 Group: Administrator Member #2 Joined: July 19, 2004	I like what you've written and would like to subscribe to your newsletter or mailing list
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sean	Dec 6 2008, 11:13 PM Post #9
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	Fed FFS Dec 6 2008, 10:57 PM Just plain human, literary mistakes can be found throughout. bound to happen when you're trying to explain something as complex and grand as God. Too many people don't know what 'Inspired by God' really means & take it for more than it is. i guess ill just have to read the article. there are alot of translation issues from original hebrew, greek, and armaic, plus alot of translators have different ways to interpret and translate these languages into english. its hard to get the original feel and intention in the original languages that cant be expressed in english, does the article mention this?
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Palmer	Dec 7 2008, 04:10 AM Post #10
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Alright, I didn't read this detail for detail, but I've heard most of it before. Here is my $.02. Let me first offer you my thoughts as a regular Christian, then specifically as a Mormon. Yes, the Bible has mistakes. Maybe not in its original form, but we have too many translations and too many scholars and people jacking with it for it to retain its Divine authority. The obvious thing here your relationship with the Father and the Son (or are they one? TRINITY FIGHT!!!) I have heard this about Job, and honestly, it's a good story, so I have no problem with it. Be it right or wrong, it has good things to teach us. Now as a Mormon! We believe the dude who brought about the LDS church, Joseph Smith, to be a Prophet of God. We use the King James Version of the Bible, but we have what we call "Joseph Smith Translations" which he was inspired to correct due to the corruptness of the Bible, as you are talking about. We also don't use the Apocrypha, because Joseph Smith received revelation that it contained too many errors and it was not worth trying to correct or use as doctrine. Now you may not care about any of that, but now you learned something about Mormons. Edited by Palmer, Dec 7 2008, 03:42 PM.



Palmer	Dec 7 2008, 03:43 PM Post #11
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Bump, because my previous post was edited and not new.



SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 7 2008, 07:31 PM Post #12
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	The bible was written by profiteers attempting to ease the mind of those disenfranchised and downtrodden during Roman rule. It was merely another story for the story book. A story that has gotten old.
	I am so damn serious.


Fed FFS	Dec 7 2008, 07:46 PM Post #13
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	SuperSeriousAtheist Dec 7 2008, 07:31 PM The bible was written by profiteers attempting to ease the mind of those disenfranchised and downtrodden during Roman rule. The historical proof backing your claim is overwhelming.... Then again, we do hear about stuff before CNN lol...But anyway, for the sake of historical accuracy........ The Bible wasn't pieced together (At least the New Testament) until well after the Roman Empire's "conversion" into Christianity. Up until then all the New Testament was, was a series of letters and scrolls written by the apostles to churches throughout the Roman Empire and not a single book. The only real profiteering that came from Bible, was during the Christian reformation with the invention of the printing press, to allow books like the bible to be made (and sold) on a massive scale. People have exploited Christianity and the Bible to make money, but this isn't why they were made.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


Palmer	Dec 8 2008, 11:21 PM Post #14
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	YEA WAT FED SED



SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 9 2008, 12:00 PM Post #15
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	Of course I meant the things pieced together into the bible. As for profiteers... really? You can think of none? Not even a heavily fortified city-state with swiss guards in ridiculous uniforms? Where some of the world's most priceless artifacts have been stored away from the public? Where it is estimated 15 billion dollars is hoarded? Where one man has repeatedly claimed to speak with the voice of god and forgives pedophiles while denouncing homosexuals?
	I am so damn serious.


Fed FFS	Dec 9 2008, 12:26 PM Post #16
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	Ok, you're right... one could argue this is why Catholicism was made.... but not Christianity at it's rawest form.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 9 2008, 12:48 PM Post #17
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	All Christianity WAS Catholicism in the beginning. Setting that aside, however, all other forms of Christianity make a hefty profit as well. But wait, you say, what about all the money they give to the poor and good works. THAT money is nothing compared to the amount they spend on new churches, conversion projects, and all other activities aimed at increasing their number of converts and through these things their power and hold over as many people as possible. Organized religion is nothing but the world's oldest corporation, designed to perpetuate itself for profit and until everyone has bought in and no one can escape. Edited by SuperSeriousAtheist, Dec 9 2008, 01:03 PM.
	I am so damn serious.


Palmer	Dec 9 2008, 01:24 PM Post #18
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Quote: All Christianity WAS Catholicism in the beginning. Setting that aside, however, all other forms of Christianity make a hefty profit as well. But wait, you say, what about all the money they give to the poor and good works. Christianity was not Catholicism in the beginning. Christ set up an organization in his ministry, but it was not Catholicism. That came about from Peter, after Christ's crucifixion. Quote: THAT money is nothing compared to the amount they spend on new churches, conversion projects, and all other activities aimed at increasing their number of converts and through these things their power and hold over as many people as possible. Sorry, Mormon soap box again. We were reported last year as tending to a natural disaster around the world every other day. Our cleric and leadership are not paid. Our missionaries pay an average of $9000 to serve their missions around the world, the church does not pay for them. Yes, we spend plenty of money on Church buildings and Temples, but we consider this a worthy cause to allow our members to worship. Quote: Organized religion is nothing but the world's oldest corporation, designed to perpetuate itself for profit and until everyone has bought in and no one can escape. How can you not escape? Just... stop going. Edited by Palmer, Dec 9 2008, 01:25 PM.



Fed FFS	Dec 9 2008, 01:32 PM Post #19
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	Fed FFS Dec 7 2008, 07:46 PM the Roman Empire's "conversion" into Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church was made well after ^^^^ But aside from that you're correct. America is capitalist, and so are it's churches. They're run like businesses trying desperately to get more people to tithe on Sunday for the 'noble' cause of expansion (which simply leads to more $). The bible doesn't call us to Tithe to an organized institution, It calls us to tithe to the poor & needy. In cases like Palmer's, there are churches that are genuine and do give in a way that is biblical, but you are indeed correct sir, because this is not always the case. Men will always be greedy, but this doesn't say anything about the bible itself or the message Jesus was trying to spread. Edited by Fed FFS, Dec 9 2008, 01:33 PM.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 9 2008, 01:32 PM Post #20
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	Which will work until one religion is supreme and then begins to persecute those who don't believe. Btw if you are saying that Peter's shit isn't legit 1. don't make me bring out that tired old on this rock the church will be built passage 2. then you are saying that everything that stemmed from Catholicism (all of present Christianity) is not true Christianity
	I am so damn serious.


Fed FFS	Dec 9 2008, 01:55 PM Post #21
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 2,838 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: September 29, 2004	SuperSeriousAtheist Dec 9 2008, 01:32 PM 2. then you are saying that everything that stemmed from Catholicism (all of present Christianity) is not true Christianity Christianity (Evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, Gnostics) all stemmed from the teachings of Jesus and not a church. Churches are made for the establishment of doctrine. Even though Calvinism emerged from the Catholic church, the doctrine that constitutes it is a world apart from Catholicism. The only common ground the both sects of Christianity have, is the Bible (from which all Christianity stems from) Edited by Fed FFS, Dec 9 2008, 01:55 PM.
	To be is to do. -Socrates To do is to be. -Sartre Do be do be do. -Sinatra


Palmer	Dec 9 2008, 02:03 PM Post #22
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	SuperSeriousAtheist Dec 9 2008, 01:32 PM Which will work until one religion is supreme and then begins to persecute those who don't believe. Btw if you are saying that Peter's shit isn't legit 1. don't make me bring out that tired old on this rock the church will be built passage 2. then you are saying that everything that stemmed from Catholicism (all of present Christianity) is not true Christianity Given how vastly liberal our country and especially our younger generations are becoming, I wouldn't worry about a church persecuting anyone. Rather, the other way around. We've had several temples and church buildings graffitied, the windows broken, and explicit signs posted since Prop 8 came about. For your other points: 1. "And Jesus answered and said unto him, 'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father Which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church;" Let's bring it out then. Surely the Church was carried on by Peter. But we interpret this "rock" as being the "Father which art in Heaven". So if we condense the verse, it says "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. And upon this rock I will build My church." So the Rock is actually revelation, not Peter. 2. Now, Peter was an apostle, and he had every right to carry on that Church. But the apostles were all martyred, and we believe that Peter never conferred the Holy Priesthood to anyone before he died. This means the Catholic church had no authority to assume anything in God's name. We believe in the restoration of that Holy Priesthood through Joseph Smith from the administering of angels. Most modern church's don't care about that, but if it is true that the church needs this authority, then it is either the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church that is correct. Or any other church that claims to have this authority which I don't know about.



UBER_ACCOUNTANT	Dec 11 2008, 06:12 AM Post #23
You wish you were a member. Posts: 67 Group: Members Member #44 Joined: September 30, 2004	SuperSeriousAtheist Dec 7 2008, 07:31 PM The bible was written by profiteers attempting to ease the mind of those disenfranchised and downtrodden during Roman rule. It was merely another story for the story book. A story that has gotten old. /agree I rather like this fellow! Huzzah!
	Democracy explained----> When you vote to watch TV and everyone else votes to stab you with knives


SuperSeriousAtheist	Dec 11 2008, 08:18 AM Post #24
Is Minipalmer's holy father. Posts: 11 Group: Members Member #2,574 Joined: December 6, 2008	Minipalmer Dec 9 2008, 02:03 PM Given how vastly liberal our country and especially our younger generations are becoming, I wouldn't worry about a church persecuting anyone. Rather, the other way around. We've had several temples and church buildings graffitied, the windows broken, and explicit signs posted since Prop 8 came about. Wrong. Ever since Reagan the American definition of liberal has been the rest of the western world's conservative. Also, maybe you shouldn't try to restrict the rights of others and then people won't have a problem with you? Quote: Most modern church's don't care about that, but if it is true that the church needs this authority, then it is either the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church that is correct. Or any other church that claims to have this authority which I don't know about. Or that guy in the south who does those crazy things with snakes and doesn't get bit, or various shaman, or a voodoo priest. Or another major religion like Hinduism. Or no one because all of this is made up.
	I am so damn serious.


Palmer	Dec 11 2008, 01:03 PM Post #25
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	SuperSeriousAtheist Dec 11 2008, 08:18 AM Wrong. Ever since Reagan the American definition of liberal has been the rest of the western world's conservative. Also, maybe you shouldn't try to restrict the rights of others and then people won't have a problem with you? Okay, we can play the word game. The Democratic party is getting bigger than the other parties. In the 60's there was a still an extermination order on the Mormons where they could shot on site in Missouri. This was after they were pushed out of three different states. We never went and spray painted the white house and whined about it - we got up and left. Btw, you're condoning religious persecution because we exercised our constitutional right to vote and disagree. Awesome.



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