i love athiests

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i love athiests
Topic Started: Dec 5 2008, 08:51 PM (708 Views)
sean	Dec 5 2008, 08:51 PM Post #1
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/12/05/atheists.christmas/index.html "When people ask us, 'Why are you hateful? Why are you putting up something critical of people's holidays? -- we respond that we kind of feel that the Christian message is the hate message," he said. "On that Nativity scene, there is this threat of internal violence if we don't submit to that master. Hate speech goes both ways."
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Palmer	Dec 5 2008, 09:46 PM Post #2
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Jesus taught that you should hate and hurt those who don't believe him. Why do athiests actively do anything? Shouldn't they just be as lazy as crap because they don't have any religious code to follow?



sean	Dec 5 2008, 10:32 PM Post #3
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	i think they just get pissed off cause we're happy
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 12:30 AM Post #4
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	no religion =/= no morals and one would assume they are active for the same reasons religious people actively try to convert... because they think they are right and want other people to think correctly and stop being so fucking ignorant (I MEAN GOSH) lol, devil's advocate
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


Palmer	Dec 6 2008, 12:40 AM Post #5
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	DARK STEELE YOU ARE DARK AND BANISHED TO THE INFERNAL BOWELS AND INTESTINES OF HEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Dude, that article screams truth. When you look at a Nativity, it is so full of hate and deceit. What a tool of torture.



DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 01:02 AM Post #6
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	I didn't read the article. I'm sure its something stupid. I was just saying in general its not good to make generalizations. Wait, OH SHI- edit: read it, its stupid Edited by DarkSteele, Dec 6 2008, 01:11 AM.
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sean	Dec 6 2008, 12:43 PM Post #7
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	DarkSteele Dec 6 2008, 12:30 AM no religion =/= no morals and one would assume they are active for the same reasons religious people actively try to convert... because they think they are right and want other people to think correctly and stop being so fucking ignorant (I MEAN GOSH) lol, devil's advocate no religion doesnt mean no morals, but religious morals definitely outweigh atheistic morals. morality is subjective, and atheists morals are inherently selfish and self-centered. mix that with a society that promotes self worship and preservation and you get a secular world full of lies, greed, deceit, and every other sin. now, just to prevent the next idiot from saying "OMG GENERALIZATIONS DWQ!RRF!F", not ALL atheists are like this, but the majority is and yes, there is corruption amongst religious affiliations and definitely plenty of sin in the people as well as the churches, BUT, this is because of the wars between cultures and the affect its having on peoples priorities. its hard to resist temptation already, but when you're surrounded by everyone telling you to feed and give in to your passions its even harder �Atheism, true �existential� atheism, burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God is a spiritual state; it is a real attempt to grapple with the true God whose ways are so inexplicable even to the most believing of men, and it has more than once been known to end in a blinding vision of Him Whom the real atheist truly seeks. It is Christ Who works in these souls. The Antichrist is not to be found in the deniers, but in the small affirmers, whose Christ is only on the lips. Nietzsche, in calling himself Antichrist, proved thereby his intense hunger for Christ�� -Fr. Seraphim Rose if you want to read up about atheism through a spiritual standpoint, check out the book Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age by eugene (fr. seraphim) rose
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Palmer	Dec 6 2008, 01:21 PM Post #8
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	DarkSteele Dec 6 2008, 01:02 AM edit: read it, its stupid Don't make generalizations you douche. This may be meaningful to different people.



DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 02:18 PM Post #9
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	sean Dec 6 2008, 12:43 PM [1]no religion doesnt mean no morals, but religious morals definitely outweigh atheistic morals. morality is subjective, and atheists morals are inherently selfish and self-centered. mix that with [2]a society that promotes self worship and preservation and you get a secular world full of lies, greed, deceit, and every other sin. now, just to prevent the next idiot from saying "OMG GENERALIZATIONS DWQ!RRF!F", not ALL atheists are like this, but the majority is [3]and yes, there is corruption amongst religious affiliations and definitely plenty of sin in the people as well as the churches, BUT, this is because of the wars between cultures and the affect its having on peoples priorities. its hard to resist temptation already, but when you're surrounded by everyone telling you to feed and give in to your passions its even harder “Atheism, true ‘existential’ atheism, burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God is a spiritual state; it is a real attempt to grapple with the true God whose ways are so inexplicable even to the most believing of men, and it has more than once been known to end in a blinding vision of Him Whom the real atheist truly seeks. It is Christ Who works in these souls. The Antichrist is not to be found in the deniers, but in the small affirmers, whose Christ is only on the lips. Nietzsche, in calling himself Antichrist, proved thereby his intense hunger for Christ…” -Fr. Seraphim Rose [4]if you want to read up about atheism through a spiritual standpoint, check out the book Nihilism: The Root of the Revolution of the Modern Age by eugene (fr. seraphim) rose Point 1 is untrue simply based on the fact that I don't really believe in anything at all and yet I still consider myself to have pretty good morals (I guess I'd be more agnostic? I dunno, I hope there is something but I am full of doubts- plus I don't give much of a shit anyway because I wouldn't change how I live my life) Point 2 you could argue that everyone is inherently self-centered, self preservation is a part of humanity because we evolved (or not if you want to say so, whatever) to live, not to die (as for self worship, I'm not even really sure what that term means... but I'm sure you'll tell me) Point 3 are you really trying to say that the war between cultures is no fault of the churches? Many middle eastern countries didn't give a fuck about us until the church decided to (and I quote) "crusade, lol" Point 4 these people are not spiritual atheists, that's evidenced by how they aren't trying to tear down society and devolving us into anarchy, instead they are focusing on one particular religion and really aren't doing much successfully against it - if that is nihilism then every teenager who "rebels" against his/her parents is a nihilist @ PALMER, OH SHI-
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Forum Pimp	Dec 6 2008, 02:49 PM Post #10
butterflies imo Posts: 3,861 Group: Administrator Member #1 Joined: July 19, 2004	The atheists I know are much "better" people than the vast majority of Christians I've met. So I sort of disagree with everything said here.
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sean	Dec 6 2008, 03:06 PM Post #11
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	Quote: Point 1 is untrue simply based on the fact that I don't really believe in anything at all and yet I still consider myself to have pretty good morals (I guess I'd be more agnostic? I dunno, I hope there is something but I am full of doubts- plus I don't give much of a shit anyway because I wouldn't change how I live my life) Point 2 you could argue that everyone is inherently self-centered, self preservation is a part of humanity because we evolved (or not if you want to say so, whatever) to live, not to die (as for self worship, I'm not even really sure what that term means... but I'm sure you'll tell me) Point 3 are you really trying to say that the war between cultures is no fault of the churches? Many middle eastern countries didn't give a fuck about us until the church decided to (and I quote) "crusade, lol" Point 4 these people are not spiritual atheists, that's evidenced by how they aren't trying to tear down society and devolving us into anarchy, instead they are focusing on one particular religion and really aren't doing much successfully against it - if that is nihilism then every teenager who "rebels" against his/her parents is a nihilist alright, lets try this: point 1: first of all i mentioned generalizing, there are exceptions BUT let me ask you this: the choices we make, are they not based on our priorities? anyone would say yes. so in terms of basic natural humanity, what are our priorities as animals? i would say instinct and survival. so now lets acknowledge the fact that we as human beings, rather than animals, have an evolved intelligence. has our priorities changed? generally speaking of humanity as a whole, no. even a secular philosopher like socrates acknowledges this in plato's phaedo (i only mention socrates because for some reason nonreligious folk love to quote ancient philosophers). greed, gluttony, sex are all passions of the body. the church, specifically orthodoxy, preaches against these passions of the world. atheism in all its forms, declares the opposite in an extension of its nature. just because you dont eat babies or touch little children doesnt mean you have "good morals" and/or live a "good" life. it just means you are a sensible human being that holds the most basic idea of empathy and compassion, but still very undeveloped in those principles. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- point 2: first, self-preservation is not evil or sin, but it leads to more dramatic forms of selfishness which is obvious EVERYWHERE in life today. christianity preaches to conquer bodily passions, and this includes the instinct of survival. jesus in the gospel of mark claims that his goal is to "to give His life a ransom for many" (10:47), and as christians we are supposed to do the same. as an orthodox christian i should not live for myself but for those around me (granted i myself am guilty for not living as such). when i say self-worship i refer to satanism (this is NOT the direct worship of satan, but it's definitely close, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism is quite accurate) which many atheists adopt as a way of living. we have become blind of self-indulgence and worship because we live it everyday. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ point 3: no, i am saying that the church is a PART of that culture war, and that is what is undermining it. now, an atheists favorite subject: the crusade. the middle eastern countries didnt give a fuck about us? you're right, they didn't, that's exactly why the killed and kicked out all the christians in the holy land and refused to allow them to worship in the land that JESUS the SON OF GOD walked on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ point 4: im not sure what you mean by "spiritual atheist", seraphim is just saying atheism is a spiritual state. im not calling them specifically nihilists, that's just the name of the book i referenced you. nihilism is child of atheism and it is the belief in absolute nothingness, we are alone in the universe, no god, no truth, etc etc... basically, a nihilist would say "there is no answer to the question 'why?'" (quoted from the book i mentioned) hope this helps in some way
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Palmer	Dec 6 2008, 03:08 PM Post #12
Lvl 8 Admiral Posts: 3,123 Group: Members Member #97 Joined: June 27, 2005	Forum Pimp Dec 6 2008, 02:49 PM The atheists I know are much "better" people than the vast majority of Christians I've met. So I sort of disagree with everything said here. For once, agreed. I know a few atheists, but it holds very little relevance to how they are as people. But my point from the start was asking why Atheists care at all about tearing down religion. Organized religions offer the most charity and service than any other organization we have in this country. You don't have to submit to their beliefs, but you don't have to fight them either.



sean	Dec 6 2008, 03:08 PM Post #13
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	Forum Pimp Dec 6 2008, 02:49 PM The atheists I know are much "better" people than the vast majority of Christians I've met. So I sort of disagree with everything said here. id argue otherwise, it just depends on who you know and who you meet also, just because you like them "better" doesn't make them "better" people
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


sean	Dec 6 2008, 03:09 PM Post #14
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	Minipalmer Dec 6 2008, 03:08 PM Forum Pimp Dec 6 2008, 02:49 PM The atheists I know are much "better" people than the vast majority of Christians I've met. So I sort of disagree with everything said here. For once, agreed. I know a few atheists, but it holds very little relevance to how they are as people. But my point from the start was asking why Atheists care at all about tearing down religion. Organized religions offer the most charity and service than any other organization we have in this country. You don't have to submit to their beliefs, but you don't have to fight them either. according to dawkings, harris, and hitchens, religion is the bane of humanity's existence
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Forum Pimp	Dec 6 2008, 03:25 PM Post #15
butterflies imo Posts: 3,861 Group: Administrator Member #1 Joined: July 19, 2004	One could argue that atheists who try to tear down religion are doing the same thing as believers who try to convert non-believers. And I never said I liked atheists better, just that, by most social standards, they live more virtuously.
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sean	Dec 6 2008, 03:37 PM Post #16
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	Forum Pimp Dec 6 2008, 03:25 PM One could argue that atheists who try to tear down religion are doing the same thing as believers who try to convert non-believers. And I never said I liked atheists better, just that, by most social standards, they live more virtuously. yea, you're right, they are doing the same thing but that have OPPOSITE goals. hence the conflict. you didn't have to say it, but i can bet you're atheist friends are funner and cooler to be around you're religious ones. lastly, social standards are so low its a joke, just because they're above the social norm in terms of "goodness" doesn't mean they are amazingly compassionate people. our culture has degenerated so low in terms of morality its crazy. if you want to know what a true christian is like, talk to an orthodox ascetic and tell me they are not good people and they do not live the ideal christian life. then find me an atheist equal in terms of "good morals"
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 03:49 PM Post #17
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	I think I got a bit off track (and I'm up too early goddamnit lol), you are right about the crusades - they were pretty much launched due to persecution of travelers trying to visit Jerusalem I did have that modifier of "many" on there though. That was because many of the places where Christians put the crusader kingdoms didn't have beef with Europe - until the soldiers with a license to rape and kill whoever they wanted from the church did just that and then set up big ass castles to rule them from. (although, yes, some muslims did come all up in Europe and the Iberian Penn and were repelled at tours just in time) none of that really matters though right now sean you are arguing, without knowing these people, that they are inherently going to be worse people than some other people - Not buying it
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


sean	Dec 6 2008, 04:02 PM Post #18
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	DarkSteele Dec 6 2008, 03:49 PM right now sean you are arguing, without knowing these people, that they are inherently going to be worse people than some other people - Not buying it sigh, you miss my point are atheists inherently worse than religious people? if you are speaking in terms of general "constitutional" morality, no, they are not inherently worse are they more prone to help themselves before, if it all, other people? yes, because, as i argued above, they are dictated by their own instinct and individualism, rather than being dictated by love, forgiveness, and compassion (and a higher power than manifests these traits). all in all, here is my point: an ideal christian is superior in the good aspects of human nature of even the most loving atheist. now, is anything ideal in the world? of course not, but thats a whole 'nother ballgame we can play, if you want i should be studying for finals, but this is actually very relevant to my english final on tuesday
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


Haithar	Dec 6 2008, 04:13 PM Post #19
weeeeeeee Posts: 3,390 Group: Members Member #88 Joined: April 14, 2005	Whatever makes people happy, to be honest, as long as they don't come up to me to try to change my believes. and most of your posts are too long to read but I read it anyway for some reason.
	,___,��,___,, [O.o]��(-, -)' /)__)��(__ (\ -"--"-��-"--"- O RLY?��YA RLY.


DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 04:47 PM Post #20
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	Sean I didn't miss your point at all, you are missing mine. To claim that someone is going to be better at anything than anyone else without any kind of proof backing it up is not acceptable as an argument to me. I'm sure there are atheist Mother Teresa's out there, as well as atheist Hitlers. Maybe this just boils down to me being optimistic about people and you not so much? You seem to think that in order to be a great person you have to have Christianity there as some kind of framework to hold you up. Whereas I'm of the opinion that its more about what you are taught by your family, personal action, and thought. I'm saying the religion doesn't make the man, the man interprets the religions, teachings, moral codes, and practices around him then chooses the tenants of it he wants to uphold. And, if that turns out to be none of the ceremonies, or prayers, or hymns or whatever - it doesn't make that person any less of a good man. @ heather, its because we're so damn entertaining- pretending like our arguments on the internet matter and such
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


sean	Dec 6 2008, 05:10 PM Post #21
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	DarkSteele Dec 6 2008, 04:47 PM Sean I didn't miss your point at all, you are missing mine. To claim that someone is going to be better at anything than anyone else without any kind of proof backing it up is not acceptable as an argument to me. I'm sure there are atheist Mother Teresa's out there, as well as atheist Hitlers. Maybe this just boils down to me being optimistic about people and you not so much? You seem to think that in order to be a great person you have to have Christianity there as some kind of framework to hold you up. Whereas I'm of the opinion that its more about what you are taught by your family, personal action, and thought. I'm saying the religion doesn't make the man, the man interprets the religions, teachings, moral codes, and practices around him then chooses the tenants of it he wants to uphold. And, if that turns out to be none of the ceremonies, or prayers, or hymns or whatever - it doesn't make that person any less of a good man. @ heather, its because we're so damn entertaining- pretending like our arguments on the internet matter and such first of all, if you didnt miss my point then why are you avoiding it? you keep reiterating that people dont need religion to be good people. i agree, its evident all around us, im saying an ideally good atheist is a good person who is still subject to the passions and desires of this life, while an ideally good christian is a good person who is beyond physical reality and has conquered death and sin. again i cant stress the "ideally" part enough. secondly, what kind of evidence do you want? i cant pull up a statistic about something so abstract. we're are talking in general terms of mankind and religious philosophy, if you want proof, go talk to an orthodox ascetic like i said. thirdly, im probably giving off a "more righteous than thou" vibe which is why we cant make a connection. forgive me if this is the case, im no more or less human than the next guy. im not a pessimist, when i say that people are selfish im not saying that they are all evil. a person can be good and still selfish, but that doesnt make them a truly good christian person. fourthly, the reason there are so many sects of christianity is BECAUSE people just "pick and choose" tenants they wish to follow. it is BECAUSE so many people interpret it differently. now, i think there is some miscommunication between us. when you say religion you are probably referring to the church/institution, when i say religion im referring to its values (specifically christianity) which are given to us by jesus. to take whatever you want out of jesus' teaching and throw away the rest is to undermine his words. that process DOES make a person less of a good man, because they are only good in CERTAIN aspects and not ALL aspects lastly, i dont consider this arguing, i consider it a discussion. there's nothing wrong with discussion. also, it matters to me, but why does it not matter to you? its not like you're some random person on the internet, we.... kind of know each other.
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 05:20 PM Post #22
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. BY THE WAY ALL I KNOW ABOUT YOU IS YOU ARE A JERK WHO NEVER EVER EVER EVER GOES TO MAKE THREE HUNDRED SPOOF VIDEOS WITH US.
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


sean	Dec 6 2008, 05:23 PM Post #23
CAN'T YOU SEE I'M BEING RAPED!? Posts: 4,992 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: July 28, 2004	but but, you're a friend of a friend, which means you ARE my friend!!! [face_hug]
	"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."


DarkSteele	Dec 6 2008, 05:31 PM Post #24
My chest hair makes a bird. Posts: 14,629 Group: Super-Mod Member #9 Joined: August 4, 2004	Can't argue there. [face_hug]
	The fabulous Rantshack store / / / / /


AlphaStrikeSteve	Dec 6 2008, 06:24 PM Post #25
Posts: -3,817 Group: Administrator Member #2 Joined: July 19, 2004	it sounds like you're saying basically that there is no way even a perfectly moral athiest could be as good as a perfectly ideal christian, that inherently a christian is 'better' than an athiest by definition though an athiest is one who rejects God, and to reject him you must believe he exists or otherwise you would realize there is nothing to reject against so at the basis an athiest experiences some (psychology lol) cognitive dissonance, in which way your argument makes sense to me (there is logical or emotional fallacy in his existence) but if you are arguing that one who is christian is inherently better than someone who is not, that i disagree with. christianity is only one type of foundation which can support a perfectly moral person. the 'ideal' christian you mentioned doesn't seem too different from the 'ideal' states of other religions (including agnostic ones, like one who's reached nirvana in buddhism) it seems you're using the most base stereotypes of an athiest in your argument. this is understandable given your background and while i have no problem with athiest bashing it's seems implied that included in this group are those outside of the 'thiest' realm altogether (namely, agnostics. this is where the potential disconnect could be between you and john's perspective of the argument - you are speaking strictly 'athiest' while john is reading it as all 'non-christians'). The assumption underlying your definition of an athiest though is one who is completely self-centered and has no view of things beyond himself in concern to moral things. This description however is able to fit on any type of person (a christian included, take for example a christian who's only motivation to be religious is escaping hell). There can exist an athiest who feels a stronger connection to his family, or community, or nation, or race, than to himself. As the scope of the individual increases his morality goes up accordingly. i think. this discussion would be better if 'morality' were clearly defined. what was the discussion about again? i forget. it feels like each response off tracks the whole discussion little by little. was this xbox hueg post even about what you guys were talking about? do we think the same things when we're thinking about the same things? do we exist in ways that there could ever be true understanding beyond oneself? is existence only meant to be can for one and the hamburger courics? square circle dot dot?
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